mashed in maryland
3:01 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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But you did say it was a racist conspiracy. You said "But on a macro level the system is set up to always give that white male an advantage anyway". That would be the definition of a racist conspiracy. Please remember the things you say.
Its not whataboutety to discuss the percentage of foreign students at Oxbridge. Your point was about one type of student being under-represented, and how unfair it is. So I pointed out that British-born students are statistically under represented as well, so if Oxford and Cambridge were to be truly representative, then they'd need to do something about this disparity as well.
So, my question remains. What must we all do about this injustice?
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BRANDED
2:51 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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I get the hate 100%.
Its a threat. Its a change.
Mostly its change that challenges their understanding of how life is and should be. Most people hate change unless its an absolute and clear improvement. Or perceived as such a great potential improvement that its worth trying.
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threesixty
2:44 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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Takashi
360. the blair loving, race baiting communist :.)
can you make me a t-shirt with that on it please???
:-)
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threesixty
2:43 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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BRANDED
"My experience is that the vast majority of kids from poorer backgrounds do not have the support or belief that they are good enough"
yes, some of it is that.
And its right to point out what things are causing it. I dont think everything is about someone declaring "I dont want black kids, or women or poor people" here..
Its just about figuring out the reasons and addressing them.
People get their back up about others wanting life to be as equal for everyone as we can make it. I dont get the hate.
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threesixty
2:40 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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mashed
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/19/oxford-accused-of-social-apartheid-as-colleges-admit-no-black-students
1 in 3 colleges failed to admit a black student
But anyway, I was using it as an example, not what exacytly happened (notice I said 1 woman ftse 100 ceo but you didnt attack that one either, because it was just an example).
Anyway, I explained in detail that it isnt exactly a "racist consipiracy" rather independent events create an issue that effects one race more than another (hence the word institutionalized).. but again you ignored that too...
And I'm not in to "whatabouterry" so I dont care about the issue of "foreign students" who are paying ridiculous money to study at Oxford. That isnt an issue of social inclusion because a) foreign students are really an export industry for the british economy
b) they are not our responsibility as they are not UK citizens
Which is why I said previously you are conflating two different things. The race of international students to Oxford has nothing to do with anything.
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Takashi Miike
2:31 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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360. the blair loving, race baiting communist :.)
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mashed in maryland
2:22 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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There aren't "no black people at Oxford". Why are you making things up? Ditto your assertion that I would argue in favour of sending 5 year olds up chimneys.
It seems you want absolute proportional representation in every sector of life and are blaming some vast racist conspiracy on the fact this isn't the case. That's not a matter of politics.
Now tell me what you want to be done about the over-representation of foreigners in Oxbridge, please.
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BRANDED
2:21 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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Oh and David Lammy got a degree in London then another at Harvard and became a Barrister before an MP. Hardly stupid.
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BRANDED
2:20 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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threesixty 2:06 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
My experience is that the vast majority of kids from poorer backgrounds do not have the support or belief that they are good enough. This comes from parents and teachers and wider society. I assume that they have this belief because at some point someone tried and failed but they are the ones that are primarily poisoning potentially gifted youths first.
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BRANDED
2:17 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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Queens Fish Bar 1:39 Thu May 24
He would say that. Most of them were slaves.
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threesixty
2:06 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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mashed
Equal opportunities is simply this:
Your race, class, gender, sexuality should not count against you when you are going for a role, job, educational place etc..
Because their are very few roles that a person could technically be excluded from by race, class, gender and sexuality.
So if we look at the landscape and we have 1 woman running a ftse 100 company or no black people at Oxford it either suggests one of 2 things. Women or black people are not capable in those roles or they are being excluded somehow.
the argument starts there really. Are they excluded because they dont want to do it anyway? (say how there hasnt been many asian footballers in the league because asian parents historically havent wanted their kids to play football, probably not the case now).
Or are they excluded because they dont get the opportunity to be included in the first place? i.e, they didnt go to the right schools, didnt have money for particular types of eductaional experience etc..
And can we address these irregularities?
Its basically institutionalized discrimination. No one is saying "no blacks please" (unless your a west ham football recruiter apparently - joke). Or no women etc..
Its just different things happen to conspire against different social groups.
So you can say on a micro level that if you are a white male and are qualified why shouldnt you get the place over a slightly less qualified woman or black guy. And on a micro level you could be right. But on a macro level the system is set up to always give that white male an advantage anyway.
So the problem goes on and on. Just like a BTL landlord claiming that he works hard and should be able to buy his 400th property even why other people are disadvantaged by this.
Again, it depends on your politics.
There was a time that someone such as yourself would have argued that poor 5yr old white kids should be working up chimneys and that was the way it was so why change it? Thats why I mentioned it. Its all relative. But its the same principal.
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Queens Fish Bar
1:39 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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Aristotle said it is just as bad to treat equal people unequally as it is to treat unequal people equally.
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mashed in maryland
1:34 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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It made perfect sense, but I'll explain anyway:
You're saying that because black students are under-represented at Oxbridge, we all need to do something to make sure they let more black students in. I pointed out that British-born students are also statistically under represented in Oxbridge. By your logic, Oxbridge should do more to let in more British-born students and/or less foreigners. Your argument, not mine.
What you want is the total opposite of equal opportunities, because if your goal is total parity in demographics between elite universities and the general population, somewhere along the line this would mean capable students losing out on a place because they have the wrong skin colour or background.
What this has to do with 5 yr olds going up chimneys is anyone's guess.
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Ridikzappa
1:33 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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David Lammy is an example of how a left wing simpleton with a race agenda can get into a position of power through being born with a tinted complexion and having a vast non-indigenous illiterate voting block favour him.
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BRANDED
1:31 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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If you have a Prime minister who says she wants a meritocratic society you'd hope that the very best in society were given the very best opportunities.
Very bright people from shit holes are pretty much told they arent supposed to ho to these places. That would be a system that is failing.
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ManorParkHammer
1:26 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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One of our best MP's.
Hated by resentful racists.
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harold
1:23 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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I've often read that the ethnic population aren't content with equal opportunities, but want equal outcome. For example; Lenny Henry wants half the actors on TV to be black.
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threesixty
1:22 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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mashed
I didnt understand it because it didnt make sense.
And if you want to live in a society where we dont want to make sure everyone has opportunity why dont we go back to the days where 5yrs olds were working up chimneys and the life expectency of the UK's working class was below 40!
The life we enjoy now is because people have spent time looking at these exact issues over the decades and centuries. The work never stops. To just say its ok because people are "elite" or whatever isnt really right in my mind.
But I suppose it depends what your politics are..
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mashed in maryland
1:16 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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Why does anything need "looking into"? Oxford and Cambridge are elite institutions for elite people, and they can set whatever entry requirements they like. Its also entirely possible to succeed in life without attending either (whether you're black, white, from a council estate or wherever).
There is no need to start meddling around in everything to make everything more egalitarian, or "representative" or whatever.
I'm also conflating nothing. I'm making a point about equal representation in Oxbridge. It's not my fault if you didn't understand it.
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harold
1:06 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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The report says that black students are already over represented as a % of the population. The question is, what % would be acceptable; 10, 20 or 50%. Just as well that white footballers don't complain about being vastly under represented in the PL and FL; all hell would break loose if they did!!
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threesixty
12:52 Thu May 24
Re: I hate David Lammy.
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mashed
International students are not part of the British population. They dont appear on the census as residents (if at all). So I dont know why you are conflating the two numbers.
And yes its a problem that white kids from Birkenhead or Middlesborough are not represented as well. Its not "just how it is" its how its designed.
Because the schools that Oxford take from are also not bringing people from the different classes and racial backgrounds through so Oxford arent picking them.
So either Oxford actually believes that there aren't people on lower incomes and from different racial backgrounds that are intelligent enough to do their courses (I doubt they think that) or they are not doing enough to make sure those people can access Oxford.
The system is getting in the way of reality (there are brainy people everywhere). So the system needs looking in to.
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